Qian Shaowu, Professor, Central Academy of Fine Arts, Chairman of Sculpture Committee of China National Arts and Crafts Society

Reporter: What’s your impression of Liu Shiming?

Professor Qian: Shiming was actually one year above me. But there weren’t many students in the whole Academy. We shared a bunk bed in the dormitory. At first, I slept on top and he slept under me. Later we changed, so he slept above and I was underneath. That’s it. We had a lot of fun. I also wrote that, he was very persistent, very attentive, and he looked very strange. Now he has gained some weight and he looks more or less normal. When he was young, his face seemed to be half the size of others’, and his two eyes were so big. His nickname was Ergui [second ghost]. He had a sworn bigger brother called Dagui [big ghost] and a sworn little brother. I was fairly close with all of the three. 

Reporter: Were they all studying in the Academy?

Professor Qian: Dagui works in the court. Not sure about what Sangui [third ghost] does now.

Reporter: Was Liu Shiming not very good at communication?

Professor Qian: Who knows what happened in his childhood. He was different from ordinary students. He especially liked folk opera, such as Henan Zhuizi, Hebei Bangzi, and Shanxi Bangzi. He loved the performers in Bangzi. He cut out Guo Lanying and others on paper. He put up the paper cut-outs on the wall against the head of his bed. It became a wall full of paper cut-outs of famous performers. As he created more papercuts, he stuck some on my wall. He loved them. We quite liked them, too. 

Reporter: He liked folk opera. Did he go to see the operas?

Professor Qian: Yes, he did. It wasn’t expensive to see an opera then. Whenever he had some money, he spent it on operas. The Central Academy of Fine Arts was located in Wangfujing, behind the Jixiang Theatre. It was one wall away from Jixiang Theatre and Dongfeng Market. Sometimes when famous performers came to play from other places, he would go and see them. The funniest thing is that he was so enchanted by one of the Henan Bangzi actresses called Ma Jinfeng, who sang as Mu Guiying, that he went to see her almost every night.

Reporter: He seems to be close to Ma Jinfeng. He has photos of her at all ages from young to old.

Professor Qian: He liked her so much. He didn’t ask whether she was married. He did everything for her, for Ma Jinfeng. He went to the backstage to see Ma Jinfeng. He was a graduate student of the Central Academy of Fine Arts at the time, a university graduate student. Ma Jinfeng, no matter what, came from a small place in Henan. When she knew he was a graduate from the Central Academy of Fine Arts and liked her so much, she agreed to see him. When she actually saw him, she was startled by his appearance, and then called him little brother. He called her big sister. In fact, he wanted to pursue Ma Jinfeng. Why was Ma Jinfeng so ambiguous at the time? Once you get married, you shouldn’t do that. Her husband, a counter-revolutionary, was in prison, and he would stay imprisoned for a further seven or eight years. So, Ma Jinfeng hesitated. When she saw his appearance, she called him little brother. Those of us who had some experience knew that when people called you little brother, that meant they appreciated you, they were kind to you, and you shouldn’t think any more of it.But he didn’t care. When he graduated, he applied to be in Henan for work, and there he went. Without any relatives or other contacts, he followed Ma Jinfeng back to Henan. 

Reporter: I remember the sixty days when he was officially transferred. He graduated early, in the 1950s.

Professor Qian: He stayed in Henan for over ten years.

Reporter: I mean when he was in Beijing.

Professor Qian: He didn’t leave right away.

Reporter: After “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow” ? 

Professor Qian: I don’t know the details. I went to the Soviet Union. I left in 1953. He was really in love at the time. He didn’t leave for Henan immediately. What I know is that he worked in the Normal School after he arrived in Henan. Graduating from the Central Academy of Fine Arts, he was considered someone important. But sculpture was not included in the art department there. So, despite his major in sculpture, he was assigned to teach sketching. There was no question about the sketching skills of anyone in the Central Academy of Fine Arts, so he taught sketching. The people in Henan had no clue. Liu’s sketching was unique. It wasn’t normal at all, but full of character. They didn’t appreciate that. They treated him worse and worse. In the end, it was miserable for Liu. Later, Ma Jinfeng’s husband was released from prison. Their relationship was restored, which meant the end for Liu’s love. When Liu visited Henan, he often met Ma Jinfeng. Pitying him, Ma Jinfeng maintained a friendship with Liu despite her growing fame. She considered him as an admirer, an aficionado. He was indeed such a fan of folk operas. He enjoyed going to see them. He noted how the actresses had to breastfeed their babies, sitting on the trunks of the troupe, even right before going on the stage. This and other interesting scenes in real life with the rural opera troupes, Liu reproduced them in small clay sculptures.

Reporter: It might have something to do with Ma Jinfeng.

Professor Qian: The relationship was impossible.

Reporter: I mean the clay sculpture?

Professor Qian: He followed the troupes around.

Reporter: Ma Jinfeng also had to perform at that time?

Professor Qian: Yes, true. At that time, the troupe had to tour everywhere. The economic development in Henan had always been relatively backward. When Liu reluctantly taught sketching, people did not value him. During the Cultural Revolution when intellectuals were sent to the countryside, Liu guarded melons in the field with local villagers. They built a shack where the intellectuals and farmers squatted to guard melons. There were medicine jars on the ground in the shack. He must have had quite an experience and some fun.
In general, the same is true for his art. He has always been affectionate and full of feelings for folk art. His own life is completely different from that of ordinary artists. As famous artists keep moving upwards, Liu has always been looked down upon. When he arrived in Henan, people didn’t regard him properly as a graduate of the Central Academy of Fine Arts. He has always been destitute. Once, he almost wanted to commit suicide. But then he went to see a fortune teller. The fortune teller said there was a turn ahead for him. So, he didn’t die. 

Reporter: There was such a story?

Professor Qian: Yes, indeed. Liu told it himself.

Reporter: Why?

Professor Qian: People didn’t take him seriously. Later in the Cultural Revolution, art major didn’t really exist. He was basically jobless. With a meagre pay, it was extremely tough. He couldn’t go back either. His old classmates and even those one year below him were doing well. He felt so sad. Later, Dagui, his sworn big brother, facilitated his retirement, and introduced him to a woman in Beijing who became his wife. This woman was very honest, sincere, very good, not ugly, an ordinary housewife. Liu lived a simple life anyway. He didn’t care much. So they got married. With the marriage, he was transferred back to Beijing. Before that, it was impossible for Liu to get back to Beijing without a Beijing hukou [household registration permit] which was so difficult to get. With a Beijing wife, he made it back to Beijing. That’s how it went, introduced by Dagui. 

Reporter: Of course, Ma Jinfeng was a big name in Henan, a famous actress, whereas Liu was one of the first graduate students in New China?

Professor Qian: I was in the Soviet Union at that time. Liu wrote to me when I just returned to China for an internship. In the letter he said that “I now have a sworn sister, and I deeply respect my sister. You must buy a Suzhou sandalwood fan.” Good sandalwood fans were not cheap even in Suzhou. I was relatively wealthy as I got 500 roubles a month during my stay in Soviet Union. That equalled all the benefits fifteen college students got in a month. I bought a sandalwood fan and sent it to him, and he was overjoyed. Only later did I know that this sister was Ma Jinfeng, and the sandalwood fan was for her. 

Without caring much for anything else, he was so fond of Ma Jinfeng alone. In the end, he suffered so much that he could barely live anymore. Later he came to his senses a bit. We couldn’t do much to help him. Dagui seemed to work in the court. He was in Bejing. He was a Beijing citizen. So he understood things and he made nice arrangements for Liu. Such a good brother took good care of Liu. In this way, Liu’s second half of life was basically taken care of.  To be honest, there isn’t much love for his wife. Rather, they just lived their lives together. His wife is a kind and good-hearted woman. She is simply being a wife. Liu loves the two children. It's fair to say that it turned out well. Although he should be a professor graduating from the Central Academy of Fine Arts, his art was never considered proper, because the things he liked, such as the clay sculptures and small pottery sculptures, were considered trinkets in the Academy. Generally, what represented the Academy were the large sculptures.

Reporter: Don’t large sculptures start from small ones?

Professor Qian: They are different. The requirements are different.

Reporter: Do you mean that Liu’s sculptures cannot develop to large ones?

Professor Qian: He can make large ones. Large ones are good. But he can also make small ones. Small ones cannot be enlarged. They are two different matters. Small ones have their beauty. But it’s impossible to enlarge his clay sculptures to make a big monument. One thing that he’s different from all other professors at the Central Academy of Fine Arts is that he is deeply rooted in the soil of folk culture. Because of that, he is eclectic. He reproduces whatever he feels in his life. That resonates with the sculpture in Han Dynasty [202 BCE – 220 CE], especially the pottery sculpture which was applied in folk utensils. The utensils were discovered in the tombs, as they were placed there for the deceased to live normally as they did above ground.

What Liu creates reflects real life, for example, a big yard with houses or buildings around it, and with people who play musical instruments and sing, or ordinary people who raise pigs, feed pigs, cooking in the kitchen, etc. He reproduced all these, expressing life in his eyes. He always expresses the feelings in the middle of life without restraint. He absorbs life. He once worked at the National Museum of Chinese History (now the National Museum of China), restoring ancient artworks, so he knows something about that. Plus, he always holds folk life dearly. He stays away from ordinary art, away from the life of the upper class like that in the Academy. He really mingles with the people. He follows them. He was thus looked down upon by others who considered him simply an intellectual who went to the countryside to work together with the farmers. He isn’t good-looking, and he dresses like an ordinary farmer, in black. Even at school, he was also like that, and wearing puttees. He had gonarthritis so he walked with difficulty. He believed in all kinds of superstition.

Liu has been exposed to lives in Shanxi, Henan and northern Shaanxi, where the Yellow River runs through it. He crossed the river many times and he often commented on the sheepskin rafts. He is eclectic, which is reflected in his works. They are all very naive, unrestrained, full of life, and sincere, without any unnecessary exaggeration. Some folk sculptures are terribly ugly; of course, some are ugly, and some are well-done. But when you look at them, they were created with an effort to display the folk character. He takes a natural approach; “I present whatever I feel”, with exaggeration where it’s naturally required, or not where it should be normal. Therefore, his works are very simple, very natural, very sincere. It’s like his art more or less expresses himself even though the quality might be ordinary. He’s completely different. He reaches people’s heart straightaway. You feel that it is all about life, day and night. His art makes people feel life, the real life at the bottom of society with their happiness and sadness.

Later, he was transferred to Beijing. I’m not sure about the period between that and Henan. I returned to China during the Great Leap Forward. I don’t know if he did it in Henan or elsewhere. He created the “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow”. The draft was a small piece. Everyone liked it so it was enlarged. The large sculpture was displayed in Zhongshan Park for a long time. During the Cultural Revolution, there was a highly positive revolutionary atmosphere among the Chinese people, which was desirable at any time. This kind of mental state, I’m not sure when the Chinese people could experience it again. Although it was unrealistic, the pride and self-confidence of the Chinese people are always worthy of our appreciation, and always worthy of our pride, for the Chinese nation. Therefore, the Minister of Culture then, Comrade Zhou Yi’ang, said that this work must be handed down to future generations. Putting aside the politics and whatever the Chinese people underwent in the Great Leap Forward, that sculpture manifested the most reasonable mental state of the time.

Although that was a catastrophe later in politics, although a lot happened, that image, the mental state of the Chinese nation that was reasonable, demonstrating the confidence and determination to change their lives, is always worthy of our attention. That’s a great piece of work. The large sculpture sums it up well. The details such as each muscle comes second. After all, he graduated from the Central Academy of Fine Arts. There wouldn’t be any technical issues. The artwork makes you feel comfortable, very good. 
It was a hot-headed period throughout.

Reporter: There is something romantic about Liu Shiming’s works, which is rare in others’ works.

Professor Qian: He really believes, not faking such belief. True belief brings about true art. This is what makes him admirable. When he was transferred back to our Academy, as a dean myself, I built him an electric kiln so that he could make some pottery sculptures. That was basically a studio for him. At that time, the working conditions for everyone were very poor. In my studio, I had to add asbestos tiles on top of the four rotten wood pieces. I call it Jiumutang [nine wood hall]. His studio was a bit better than mine although the minor leak of water occurred everywhere in the electric kiln. He set up a bed next to the kiln and slept there. Jiabo was one of my students and a very good sculptor. He often visited Liu in the electric kiln for advice because Liu’s creation was so interesting. For example, it was the endgame of the Cultural Revolution when Liu returned to the Academy. At that time, many cadres didn’t have much to do. Older ones who were retired often carried big plastic bags to shop for fish. Liu then made a piece of an old cadre carrying a big bag with a hairtail in it. That was absolutely amazing. There were quite some similar pieces reflecting life in a somewhat sarcastic way. He wouldn’t publish them, in the pictorial, etc.. But they were really interesting and vivid.

Here’s another series. One piece was his entry for the National Exhibition of Fine Arts, the “Ansai Waist Drummer”, which was very well done, exuberating power. This was different from the absolute folk, but more concentrated. It could be placed independently, and it had a breadth. Clearly, Liu is capable of creating that kind of sculpture and he does create that. But his main interest lies in the vivid, unrestrained in life. This is precisely the ethos of folk pottery in Han Dynasty. After Han shook off Qin Shi Huang’s legalism, there was the freedom to explore and roam. Anything was allowed as long as no theft, robbery or murder was involved. People had unprecedented freedom. Han was a heroic dynasty, and it was especially imaginative. One reason was the unprecedented open and relaxed politics. Another was the tradition of Chu culture, which was full of imagination as evident in Qu Yuan’s works. Such freedom was something that Qin Shi Huang’s Terracotta Warriors could not achieve. It was so free, unrestrained, imaginative, interesting, and full of energy. As Lu Xun said, the art of the Han Dynasty was vigorous and lively. Liu Shiming has this spirit. He has replicated many unearthed works of all sorts, and his mental state is very close to the unrestrained expression of the Han Dynasty. He has absorbed it.

Reporter: The love Liu experienced in Henan has indeed a great impact on him. He felt many psychological and spiritual things, which are a wealth for the artist.

Qian: He is an old-fashioned intellectual. He doesn’t have high demands on his life, because he sees that everyone is similar. After he settled down, his life itself was not much different from that of others. Of course, it was different from famous people. But compared with ordinary teachers like us, it was almost the same. Taking life as it was, Liu did not complain, and he did not feel wronged or resist. No. He was fascinated by whatever he encountered in life, and he reproduced that. It was not necessarily sarcastic. He felt at ease. The creation was carefree. There are many examples. When he guarded melons as an intellectual, he did not complain. He regarded it as something fun in life. Although there was something unreasonable in society then, he did not deliberately complain or reveal the dark side of society, no.

Reporter: It’s like using sketches or documenting devices to record real life?

Professor Qian: There is such a factor.

Reporter: There must be also something he refined. So the value of a work of art would be…?

Professor Qian: No, real art is always so unrestrained. He did create something to achieve some political purpose if you want to believe that. But the specific feelings deriving from life are always the essence of art. There could be some criticism, some sympathy, and you also feel the joy of suffering. These were very good at the time. Generally speaking, that was the epitome of real life. But he wasn’t trying to reflect real life, but what he saw and felt. He created to store his interests, his sympathy, etc. His artistic value lies in sincerity and that’s a very high value.

Regarding the works like the “Ansai Waist Drummer”, and “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow”, he was full of excitement as part of the grand political movements. He concentrated and developed this style. It wasn’t bad. He was capable of this. Or he was very skilled at this. Such a valuable artist, he wasn’t like many others who would create some sculptures to praise the merits of the ruling party in an answer to some political call, nor did he satirize anything. He had a very balanced mentality, a bit resigned to adversity. Like many Chinese intellectuals, as long as he could live an all-right life, he’s fine. He did not hold much dissatisfaction. No. Only when he saw some phenomena, sometimes he found it amusing, sometimes interesting, sometimes he felt very sympathetic, he reflected on it without restraint in his creation, which was full of fun, full of life, so interesting.

I think that people of our generation have been tempered by all the ups and downs in life, for instance, we were suddenly revolutionaries, and suddenly we became counter-revolutionaries, as we were tossed over and over, we understood very well the mentality of our peers. But not many people in the art circle can express such mentality in an unrestrained manner. For example, over years, there have been many paintings of flowers and plants, or the praise of merit. There are many such works. Liu’s works are not a praise of merit. He believes, or he is full of heroic feelings and fantasy. Back then, like most others, he was like writing famous songs. He wasn’t lying, but he felt. His works thus contain artistic value. In art, it’s a sincere documentary of feelings, a sincere expression, which should be the best value of life. Because as many political concepts as there can be, you express whatever you truly feel in your heart, your happiness, your sympathy, and your sadness, in a direct way. Sometimes it makes you smile knowingly, like the one with the old cadre carrying a bag with fish bought from the street, which implies he has not much to do. That is not criticism, but realism. You smile with frustration. That’s interesting. Few artists can reflect that in such an intimate and interesting way. Many of Liu’s works are like that. So, I think this is to express the sincere emotion in one’s real life in an unfettered, sincere and vivid way.

His language has become a language very much worthy of attention. There is no pretentiousness, no deliberate exaggeration, no specific restriction. There is no limit on sculpting houses, furniture, or other props. For the intended expression, he sculpts houses or millstones wherever possible. He expresses whatever he feels in his heart in an unrestrained way. That’s a critical principle. Only when an artist is full of confidence in his own feelings, full of interest, can all he feels becomes art that contains all the human feelings and become fascinating. Liu is like this in life, and in his art. His charm must be sincere. He always tells the truth and keeps real. This quality is the most fundamental quality. Achieving this in art, even with small sculptures, he feels unrestrained. Unlike some artists who would leave a strong personal imprint, Liu doesn’t care. This is what I feel. This is how I like it. I feel that these things are fascinating, so I will reproduce them in simplicity, the rustic boatmen and boat for instance. You can feel it all..

Reporter: Liu didn’t create the sculptures for anyone?

Professor Qian: He just feels it. Of course, old friends like us would have a laugh at his interesting works. I believe their artistic values really are eternal. Generally, they cannot disappear or be destroyed when the times or ideals change, because he is genuine, because it’s the authentic, full and vivid expression of his own real feelings. The same goes for his techniques. You cannot copy his techniques. Or we can say there isn’t much technique involved. We can also say many techniques are applied. 

He's not like those who stress techniques, carving skills or emotional design. No. Sometimes he feels clumsy, and sometimes he doesn’t know how to do it. It could take a lot of effort to finally accomplish a piece. He always makes you feel the sincerity, which is moving, and that he genuinely loves what he creates. Even the national aspect, the traditional simplicity characterised in Han Dynasty, you can feel them all. But sometimes he creates vivid works, such as the small figurines of performers in the opera troupes. Those are simple and guileless.

Reporter: He is able to connect his works closely with people’s life experiences. He is the purest artist.

Professor Qian: Yes, that’s absolutely right, the purest artist. You are right. He impresses people as the purest artist, with such a life, such an artistic attitude. You may consider him romantic, but in fact he is not romantic. His emotions don’t involve anything else. He has his rationality. If possible, he likes it the way he likes. He devotes himself wholeheartedly, regardless of the results. There is indeed an attitude towards art, and life, that pertains to those very pure artists.

Reporter: Like the internationally famous artists such as Vincent van Gogh, art has a special connection with their lives.

Professor Qian: Without such a life, even if you try hard to achieve it, it’s impossible. You just can’t. You can’t grasp those vivid things, or experience them. What he creates reflects who he is. With such a life, such a person, there is the art.

Reporter: During the Cultural Revolution, did you know much about what happened to him?

Professor Qian: During the Cultural Revolution, I was too busy taking care of myself. He wasn’t prosecuted but left alone. No matter what, he was considered a member of the revolutionary masses.

Reporter: He survived a disaster?

Professor Qian: I did survive the Anti-Rightist Campaign. I was in the Soviet Union, and big-character posters were put up. I was definitely a target. It turned out that there was one rule determined by the central committee that students studying in the Soviet Union shall be exempt. After all the denunciation and struggle sessions, I was fine. But I didn’t escape the Cultural Revolution. I was subject to all sorts of charges including following the capitalist path. I was a secretary of the Party branch and a department head. I didn’t count as a reactionary academic authority in the Central Academy of Fine Arts but rather a member of the gang.

Reporter: Before the Cultural Revolution, it was during the Great Leap Forward when Liu created the “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow”, and the “Ansai Waist Drummer” we mentioned?

Professor Qian: The “Ansai Waist Drummer” came later. It was after the Cultural Revolution.

Reporter: He participated in several sessions of the National Exhibition of Fine Arts, but he didn’t win any awards. His works weren’t that good?

Professor Qian: His style was rough. He didn’t pay attention to superficial effects. Generally speaking, people could not understand the true meaning of his works. That’s true. Many people couldn’t get the value of his works, because of the rough appearance. 
But the spiritual power contained in his works was very precious, very good. It wouldn’t take much effort to notice the astonishing power. 

Reporter: This implies an issue, the judges.

Professor Qian: I have been a judge in multiple sessions of exhibitions. Some in the sculpture panel were important artists. But to be honest, there are many accidental factors, especially many limitations in the National Exhibition of Fine Arts. Sometimes it was the political factor. He knew what motif was expected, but he didn’t care about the political climate. He just created whatever he felt like. He wouldn’t think about how to do it more economically, or how to stress a certain theme, etc. He didn’t care. He simply reproduced his feelings, which didn’t stand out among all entries. That’s why many people often did not understand him very well.

Now impact is emphasised in art. It must stand out and catch people’s attention. It is another factor to be considered in sculpture, although not a main one. For a long time, we used to create for political purposes, responding to all the political slogans. There were good works as a result. As long as you really believed in it, as long as your emotions were aligned, you might create great works. For example, the big drum in the Agricultural Exhibition Hall, that was a good reflection of the mental state of the Chinese nation at that time. But that was the only one. All others weren’t good. The “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow” sustained because what it reflected in confidence was admirable, that is, the people’s eager aspiration to transform their lives after the Chinese nation suffered humiliation for over a century, even though the political context seemed catastrophic. Most of the works back then focused on superstition, or praise of merit, which wouldn’t be of much value. Nowadays, the climate in China is always a factor. It doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s bad with this factor. Not necessarily. As long as you really have a sincere feeling, you can still create something great. For example, during the War of Resistance against Japanese Aggression, a large number of great works appeared. They were created by the Chinese people who had really felt something. 

Recently, I sensed many new vibes, which is great. One thing is that with the growing awareness of commodities, sculpture, unlike others, as a project, is profitable. It brings in a revenue. That’s it. Whether major or minor, most sculptors in the Academy own cars. They are all a bit better off than those in printmaking. How does it matter? We often see too many commercial factors at play especially in urban sculptures. Now every city must have a sculpture to represent the city. It must be abstract, with a few sticks and a few circles. Anyone can create those. And when it stands dozens of metres tall, that’s a lot of money for the sculptor. It’s such a common phenomenon that many garbage sculptures appeared. Another example is the greenways. Greenways are great. We can all walk leisurely on the greenways. It’s nice and lively to have a couple of folk sculptures dotted along the path. But then when it’s copied everywhere throughout the country, when every city has a square, every village has a square, and greenways are everywhere, it becomes a nuisance, and that is terrible. It could have been interesting but it’s not anymore.

No one buys Liu’s works. Even the small ones, they don’t sell much. There are those he wouldn’t sell. When people like some particular sculptures, he’d just give them away. Pottery sculpture is not difficult for him. He simply doesn’t do it for business. It’s easy to see that most of the so-called urban sculptures are created for a certain purpose, or for bragging. This has something to do with China’s commodity market economy. There’s this herd mentality in China. Either no one cares or everyone follows one’s example. They all go after money. This is a very serious trend in the sculpture circle. There will be one day when the general public become sick of the urban sculptures. But the cause lies on the sculptors themselves. The quality of the sculptures is getting worse. Lately, I often advocate against that. But simply advocating doesn’t help. There’s the law of value, the economy at work.

Now a new trend I see is very good. While it’s nice to have the National Exhibition of Fine Arts to advance the progress of sculpture, the impact is limited. Nonetheless there are many local competitions, for example in Hebei and Tianjin. Also in Hui’an, national competitions have been held there for six years, once every other year. They have the money, so they offer some prizes. When the enterprises come together for this, the reputation of Hui’an is on the rise, and it benefits the growth of their local sculptors. I just came back from Quyang. After sending people to Hui’an to learn, Quyang also held a competition. From all competitions there must emerge several wonderful works, because they are not bound by too many political limitations, which makes it interesting. Higher artistic quality can be achieved, and possibilities increase considerably for sculpture.

For example, there were once these fascinating sculptures in Hui'an.

Reporter: Are the sculptors professionally trained?

Professor Qian: Some are, and some are not. Even those professionally trained could be unrestrained.
Lui is very fond of operas.

Reporter: He got a…(missing part)

Professor Qian: A part-time job. He didn’t have a radio. One night when he came back from a show, he didn’t sleep instead he made paper cuts of Ma Jinfeng’s profile and her in the costumes. That was a great resemblance. He kept cutting and cutting. Later when he ran out of space on the wall against his bed, he put them up on my wall. But that was extraordinary papercutting, so I was happy to take them in. That obsession was very interesting.

Reporter: Paper cut-outs of Ma Jinfeng only?

Professor Qian: Ma Jinfeng only, before there was Guo Lanying. Until recently, Guo Lanying… We have a good friend who is now in the United States. Before he went abroad, he and Guo Lanying knew each other, because he was originally from a dance troupe, and I introduced him to the Party. He knew that Ergui particularly liked Guo Lanying’s songs, so he contacted Guo Lanying, and then Guo Lanying personally visited Liu. That was a rare thing. This is all I know. I don’t know about the details like how she got there or what they talked about.

Back then, Liu’s love for folk artists and folk operas was unusual. It was beyond the reach of ordinary people. Although we were different in age, the six of us were very affectionate and we often stayed together. I slept on the bed underneath his, and he slept above mine.

Reporter: What kind of character did you feel at that time?

Professor Qian : He was just weird.

Reporter: What kind of weird?

Professor Qian: For example, he has a small pencil case in the shape of a coffin. He carved it himself. He put everything in his coffin, everything. Most people thought that was weird. It was also funny, because his nickname was Ergui [second ghost]. Everyone called him Ergui. I didn’t know there were also Dagui [big ghost] and Sangui [third ghost]. I didn’t know then. But everyone called him Ergui, so I called him Ergui. Usually, he didn’t talk much.

He was not particularly indifferent. He would talk about whatever he felt like. But once he started about the immortals, gods, and ghosts, he talked endlessly. When it comes to that, everyone was generally a child, aged 19 or 20.

Reporter: He believed in gods and ghosts. What did he practise?

Professor Qian: He practised Tongzigong [martial arts for children]. The training of night vision was the funniest part. He trained his eyes to be able to see in dark night. He also tried everything to find a way to treat his gonarthritis. He would pay tremendous effort to this. When he trained his night vision, he sat on the bed above mine. We, or our beds were next to each other. He was there and I was here. Sometimes when he came back from the bathroom at night, he remembered wrongly, and he crawled into my bed. It was possible that I crawled into his bed. He just sat there with his legs crossed. He was in black, both top and bottom, sitting in the dark, practising. His eyes were wide open, and he had big eyes. One night, during a dormitory inspection, when in the times of the Kuomintang it was a teacher surnamed Liu who came to inspect, he was horrified at the sight of the big bright eyes in a dark room. What’s going on? He ran away at once. We laughed so hard. That’s one story about Shiming’s training in night vision. There are similar ones. He also believed in qigong. It was to train his legs that suffered from gonarthritis. He had polio.

Reporter: Did he feel inferior at that time?

Qian: Not really. Maybe a bit. He didn’t think much about it. He didn’t usually talk to strangers. After getting to know each other, he was very at ease. Especially when immortals, gods and ghosts were mentioned, he would talk nonstop. He had lots of stories. He was a believer himself, so his storytelling was very engaging. As for me, I didn’t believe in those. He did, and he practised. He did whatever he felt like. He practised whatever he felt like. Anyone who saw him would find him so innocent through his eyes.

Reporter: He was the same when he was young?

Professor Qian: It was even weirder than it is now. Now his face is a bit rounder. When he was young, it was so narrow, which made his eyes look even bigger. He really looked like a ghost. That’s so funny. But he was excellent at drawing and sculpting, so everyone respected him, and the teacher liked him very much. Therefore, he didn’t feel depressed or inferior. Not at all. Certainly, there were people who looked down upon him. Unlike us, he didn’t join the Party, or the underground Party. His best friend Liu Xiaocen was in the same class as him. He’d know much more. But Xiaocen is not in good health. He is in hospital, due to cerebral thrombosis. Xiaocen has such a great sense of humour. He knows a lot about Ergui. And there is another friend, Liu Jiahong, who was also my mate. Liu Jiahong is a very sincere person. Later after I left China, we didn’t keep in touch. Liu Jiahong often visited Liu Shiming, and he was nice to Liu Shiming. Jiahong knows a lot of things. He was labelled as a rightist during the Anti-Rightist Campaign. After the Reform and Opening Up, I as a department head invited him back to the Academy and facilitated his rehabilitation, etc. But he always held some opinions on the Party. Of course, he is a very nice person, and he is not reactionary. He joined the underground Party even earlier than I did. But then completely inexplicably, he was labelled as a rightist.

It was when he returned to the Central Academy of Fine Arts after studying in a training class in the Soviet Union that he became labelled as a rightist. As for Shiming, everyone knows that he was kind, and he was nice to all of us. Nothing political was involved. He wouldn’t differentiate himself from those of us who became Party members. 

Reporter: His life has turned out alright?

Professor Qian: His life has turned out alright.

Reporter: Although he lived a hard life, but politically…

Professor Qian: Politically, he wasn’t labelled as a rightist.

Reporter: What if he was?

Professor Qian: That’d be even more incredible.

Reporter: He was just… in everyday life.

Professor Qian: Principally, he’s not very good at managing everyday life. Otherwise, he would have done better than this.

Reporter: In the approach adopted nowadays, he’d be considered to have relatively low emotional intelligence. He is a very simple person, and this kind of person perhaps is suitable to work on art.
Professor Qian: He doesn’t care anything about relationships. He just does his own thing. He does whatever he feels like.

Reporter: This kind of thing, the gains and losses. He had such an impactful love experience, with lots that no one would have shared. He had invested so much. 

Professor Qian: Yes, once in a lifetime.

Reporter: He maintained a lifelong friendship with Ma Jinfeng. That’s quite something. 

Professor Qian: Yes, that’s quite something. Ma Jinfeng is very moved by him, but he is such a weird person. It was impossible for them to be together while Ma Jinfeng was such a famous performer. And she already had a husband, who didn’t do badly after getting out of prison. That’s why. She didn’t lie to Ergui or declare that she liked him. No, she didn’t. She just called him little brother. Ma Jinfeng has been very kind to him. She often sent him tickets to her shows. When she came to Beijing, she often sent him tickets as well. I was admitted to the National Art School in Beiping in 1947, and he was admitted to the National Art School in Beiping in 1946, the first batch.

Reporter: He has achieved such good results with the “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow”. So many fellow students’ works got into exhibitions abroad and here. There was a fairly good momentum among the students. But right then, he went to Henan alone, which was not that reasonable.

Professor Qian: True. I wasn’t in China then. I left in 1953, and I didn’t return until 1959.