Sun Wei, Director of the Sculpture Art Institute, Central Academy of Fine Arts

Reporter: What’s your point of view?

Sun Wei: I think it’s up to him. It seems that he is interested in the real life of  people. From the bottom of his heart, he absorbs things from life, which is the same with the sculpture he makes. I think it’s out of the question if you ask him to create an image of a stylish girl, but what he creates can’t be in a faddish style and state at present. He can make nice curly hair, and of course a miniskirt and a long neck to wear a necklace. But the miniskirt he is going to make will be shorter than a real one, which is the refinement and exaggeration of real life. I don’t think his sculpture is only limited to the theme of the countryside or the life of common people. It doesn’t matter which theme he selects.

He only makes what he is most passionate about. I think this state means he always has a true feeling for life, so he is likely to make these things though he cannot do them well. He really created the image of a little girl in miniskirt, but he failed to focus on her legs which should be made beautiful and slender like the models shown in the commercial advertisement of silk stockings. Instead of following suit, he may make a miniskirt that is flapping and floating in the breeze. He is definitely unlikely to be fond of Monroe’s skirt. He is equally definitely likely to make big eyes and long eyelashes, but he pays more attention to the most splendid and most colorful atmosphere, an atmosphere which is fashionable and can be found in his works. It is better to analyze one of his works. In fact, now there is an catalogue of paintings on his works and it will be easy to figure out what he really wants if you read it.  

Reporter: Were those things photographed? And where can his things be placed?

Sun Wei: I cannot remember them.

Reporter: Could you say something about them? Has he created a lot works? 

Sun Wei: Yes, I saw them with my own eyes. But I don’t know whether his works exist or not, including that catalogue. 

Reporter: Really? 

Sun Wei: Have you seen the most classic ones?
 
Reporter: Whose works?

Sun Wei: The works of Liu Shiming.
 
Reporter: You mean Hearing on Horseback or Face-to-Face?

Sun Wei: Awakening .

Reporter: Are there any specific contents? What’s the key to them?

Sun Wei: Speaking of Mr. Liu, he is just this sort of person. To tell you the truth, I don’t have a clear idea of his personality as well as the pottery boats and houses created by him. Although some traces of modern life can be seen from his works, I have to say honestly that he is an idealistic person, whose personality is constantly reflected in his works. He is very romantic. In his works, the piglets and pigsties as well as the small figures huddling up together under the low wall are the epitome of his ideal life. Liu Shiming eagerly yearns for a free and cozy life without any other aspirations. Granted that he does these things, the image of a farmer with a small yard is actually a description of himself. In my opinion, he really expresses himself. Think about his works, and you can know that the idealistic flavor and the ideal state pursued by him are displayed in his works.

Reporter: Kind of super-strong-ism?

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: But he looks like an ordinary person. Then what is your impression of Liu Shiming? 

Sun Wei: It’s hard to say. He has definite views of his own. In real life, he makes a choice with a purpose. I think he has a strong sense of purpose. Although the scenes chosen by him come from reality, they are the things understood and pursued by him, which reflect his idealism, aren’t they? Everything was designed in this way, including the figures, the scenes, the actions, the props and so on. For example, in the birdcage he made, the bird holds the iron wire of the cage in its beak, giving a sense of softness and shaking as if about to fall. In my opinion, although the bird is fettered by the cage, it is striving to live in a romantic and brisk way. This understanding and the expression of his are quite interesting. Yet I don’t know what  you think of these things. 

Frankly speaking, it is hard to explain why Mr. Liu chose this theme instead of others. Actually, such choice is inseparable from his subjective standard, hence bringing in his subjective color and his own ideas, just like different people that prefer different styles of food. This is why Mr. Liu is engaged in sculpture. He introduced idealism to his works, though what he expressed are from real life, including real people, real scenes, and real images. But he masters a real knack of being able to mold a novel kind of reality based on the things he chooses from plain reality. The ideal expressed via the novel reality that can be seen from his works. As a matter of fact, he advocates returning to the original nature of things.

What he demands is an ideal which is particularly simple and essential. And all his works are closely related to this ideal. I dare say no other artist of his age is courageous enough to do so. But he has courage. He takes this as the true colors of art. Art should be expressed in a vivid way. He adheres to his own ideal and is determined to express it, unlike those who take a cowardly attitude in this regard. In fact, it is his ideal that encourages him to do so. Of course, here I do not mean that other people are short of such a life. Other people are also able to see this life and call it reality, which, in their opinion, cannot be expressed. However, he deals with it from a different perspective because he (Liu Shiming) is an idealist and at least I think so. As a person who has his own ideal and pursuit, he is brave enough to apply such ideal and pursuit to his works and to embody these things through them. In this sense, I believe that he is not a pure realist. 

Reporter: As he gets older, he becomes talkative. But when he was young, he was in a different state. 

Sun Wei: Right on.

Reporter: Indeed. I think that from the perspective of emotion, he is not restricted by reality.

Sun Wei: Actually, it is his ideals that support him.

Reporter: Each work shows vigor which is peaceful and serene. Even a piece of spoiled work is an expression of the atmosphere of life. And there is absolutely nothing bad in particular.  

Sun Wei: His works are extremely clean. I mean the expressed theme is very clean without any impurity. Although there seems to be something blended with it, it is still pure. That is to say, his works are very pure. He can dip into everything whose image can be found in his works. It is this point mentioned by you just now that reflects his understanding of life. He is brave enough to portray it. This old man is a little unique in this regard. His understanding of life must be clean without taking in the so-called worldly demands or fashionable things. Every element in his works is the thing found by him with a pure eye. Maybe he has suffered many hardships or experienced many frustrations. However, he succeeds in taking his favorite things as his spiritual support. He retains a sense of the genuine and virtue and uses them to support his life and his creation. I think his works are well-done and very clean, without any fabricated thing, any artificial decoration or any additional demand in real life. I think his works are very clean and free from any additional things and extra requirements beyond real life. As a matter of fact, what he pursues is no other than idealism.

Reporter: I think his works are more about the presentation of impossibility. He yearns for a simple life, or pursues pure love. You know, he must be this kind of man. If he had received a lot of love, he might have lived a colorful life. It looks as if all his works, including the spoiled ones, attained the effect of serenity.    

Sun Wei: Yes. Anyway, his pursuit of the peaceful and serene life can be seen through each of his works, which might show traces of excitement without displaying additional things. I am not sure if I can put it this way. For example, if I am going to create the scene of a disco, I will ensure the characters in the disco honor a proper dress code compatible with the atmosphere there. Besides, the characters depicted by me are different in body shape, for example fat guys and skinny ones. And another thing is that I think some rich people, bar girls as well as some atmosphere and additional things would be required there. However, he is unwilling to do this. What he wants to create is a disco, not something else. Of course, this example given by me is not very appropriate. From what you have talked about just now, I can also feel that he is really engaged in his artistic creation in a peaceful and serene way, which can be termed peaceful sereneness. 

Reporter: In fact, his things can be found gradually. There is seemingly a viewpoint that they do not exist in some of his works. But if refined, they can be found all the same.    

Sun Wei: Exactly.

Reporter: All these things share a similarity. But was it the same even at that time? 

Sun Wei: His works show no suffering or pain. The peasants in his works do not lead a painful life, but have a sunny disposition. Even the melon shed in a dark night is portrayed in such a sweet and humane way. Instead of criticism, what he advocates is humanity itself, which I think exists in each of his works. It is really difficult to clearly and precisely express such feelings in words. Perhaps, it is the glamour in his works that cannot be expressed clearly by us as ordinary people. Since it cannot be expressed in language, it can only be felt by constantly appreciating his works. Only when you savor his works can you feel it. I think it’s hard to speak it out clearly. 

Reporter: (Question Missing.)

Sun Wei: As mentioned above, he is a realist. 

Reporter: He is absolutely not a realist. He adopts a method of artistic shaping. Although it comes from reality, doesn’t it represent an ideal state?  

Sun Wei: It has a comprehensive influence on him. All of his works are based on and come from real life. All the major elements including images, props and characters rest on real life. However, by integrating all the elements into his works, what he tries to express must be beautiful and positive thoughts, namely, his ideal. I think the works of Mr. Liu also express such a state. Maybe it is hard for him to give a clear explanation. Perhaps he relies on this. Without such an ideal, his works are nowhere to be found. I think it is the most precious thing that is kept in his mind. He cherishes such sereneness, unwilling to argue with others. His inner life is very peaceful and serene because he has no conflict of interest with others. It’s with this state of life that his works are shaped.

Reporter: I think that his works are in fact under this state. Let’s talk about things in China. How many famous monumental sculptures are there in Beijing? There are not many such sculptures. However, he has participated in creating many of them, at least quite a few of them, such as those in Zhongshan Park, the Military Museum as well as Beijing Stadium and the Workers’ Stadium. In fact, such monumental sculptures are located in just a few places in Beijing, not to mention those in other cities. Let’s talk about his sculptures created in Beijing. After all, his works were created after the founding of the People’s Republic of China (the New China).

Sun Wei: He is a veteran artist who grew up after the founding of New China. One can get a glimpse of China through his works. Judging from his works, he is an artist created by the specific historical period. But I think he is a weird artist. Why? When others were still passively following the tide of the times and struggling, he seemed to have hidden. Since the tide of the times holds an attraction for anyone, he cannot have failed to experience it. I think he hid himself in his inner life and he did so intentionally and deliberately. He created many works in the early period of his lifetime. He was involved in the creation of many art pieces in the 1950s, especially in Beijing, as mentioned above. Then, he gradually withdrew his creations in this regard and hid himself. I don't think he couldn't feel the tide or change of the times. He had his own ideals. He may have deliberately distanced himself from the era.

He often indifferently said: “You all can do whatever you want to do. I can’t do what you do. I can only focus on my realm.” Maybe it’s due to all the things he experienced that he kept most pivotal and indispensable things in his mind and magnified it. If you see him from the perspective of a historical period or the development of the culture of sculpture for several decades, you may say that he is quite peculiar because he experienced a boom in his creation over a time span of twenty years lasting from the late 1980s to his death in 2010. One day, I mentioned him, saying that only from the late 1980s did he keep on creating these works, which were based on his previous groundwork and preparations. We did not find such works in the early or mid-1980s when few people were engaged in their artistic creation from this perspective. This proved that he really had a unique artistic vision.  

Reporter: (Question Missing.)

Sun Wei: He moved to Henan, and lived houses near a railway. But I cannot remember the details. In Henan, there was also a lot of fun in museums. But he did not understand why he was dispatched to guard the railway. He told me that with these circumstances, he could watch trains every day. He told his stories in a vivid and interesting way. In those days, we had few opportunities to listen to his stories. I think that as he got older, he was inclined to tell stories. However, at that time when we were students, he dared not tell us stories because he felt that he would be regarded as heretical and was afraid to boldly speak out his ideas. Since he was only a second-class citizen, he hid himself in a small corner, afraid to expose himself in public. In fact, I believe that this was the reflection of his inner life. As a rule, many people are prone to follow the general trend of the times. Naturally, they instinctively combine their destinies with the tide of the times. However, Mr. Liu is an exception. That is to say, he did not match up to his destiny with the specific era. In other words, he did not go with the tide. But he exposed his true feelings. Moreover, he magnified those feelings, leaving the pure things. Unlike anyone else, he did behave like a second-class citizen who was reticent. He only did his own work without minding what others said.  

He was definitely an underdog. He was not good at dealing with interpersonal relationships. As you said, he belonged to a vulnerable group in life, and even in art, he did not consider himself as a big fish. I think that it’s better for me to make the following remark about his character: he did not say that the artistic works of others were poor and he only adhered to his own favorite thing on condition that he was not threatened to give it up. I think this old man did not imagine himself as the greatest artist. He would never include fake things and the things that were not possessed or accepted by him into his works. He is a man in such a state. So, just now, you said he couldn't argue with others because he was outside the mainstream of art. He never argued with others. But I think that he never wanted to argue with others. I don't have specific examples to support this opinion. I never saw him get angry with others over a theoretical question or something else. He never did so. If others raised their voices, he would lower his voice immediately. Superficially, he made a concession. But in nature, he would never change his own mind at the bottom of his heart. He had his own ideas, but he would avoid a head-on conflict with others. Seemingly, he was really a good egg.

Yet in fact, I don’t think he was such a man. Didn’t he know that he had to make painstaking efforts to create his works? Didn’t he know that he was fond of his own works? If you told him that you were really fond of his works, he would be glad like a child and give them to you as presents. Since you say you are fond of them, you can take them away. Since we did not know how to fire pottery at that time while he often did so there alone, we frequently went there to watch him fire pottery. Sometimes we plucked up our courage to ask him for one of his works. He was always very generous. It was hard for us to ask for it. But once we asked, Mr. Liu, a very amiable man, would usually give it away. In fact, he was really a very tolerant person. Anyway, I never saw him argue with students, other teachers and the Academy. But I cannot cite specific examples.

Reporter: He never argued with others?

Sun Wei: It was actually true. Not only would he not argue with others, I think sometimes he didn't dare to look other people in the eye. If you faced him and looked directly at him, he would avoid direct eye contact with you. So I think he would flush when he spoke with others and dared not to face others squarely, never argued with others.

Reporter: Maybe Mr. Liu was such kind of man.  

Sun Wei: He just hoped to have a kiln, a place to fire things. I remember at that time he just wanted to work in such an environment .

Reporter: Even this was impossible?

Sun Wei: If you say that he had a sense of inferiority, I don’t think so. I think he was unwilling to argue with others, and he couldn’t because he obtained such happiness, happiness after he won a victory. He never gained success, so he kept the stuff in his heart which could not be touched by anyone else. I think it is the stuff that is sweet, pure, unworldly, and peaceful, and can reflect the style, the feature and the realm of his works. He kept the stuff in his inner life and would not allow it to be changed by anyone else.  

Reporter: Really? It is not false?

Sun Wei: It's not false. I am on the brink of being unable to tell the story. He was really not angry. I remember that a colleague once inadvertently knocked over a piece of his works and it was broken. You know, every artist loves his or her own works very much. I once had one my works damaged and was very angry. After all, an artist’s feelings for his or her works are similar to the feelings for his or her mother or daughter.   

Reporter: Not easy, either.

Sun Wei: Yes, it's really not easy.

Reporter: Two works?

Sun Wei: I once had my works damaged and flew into a rage. However, Mr. Liu would not. I remember that a person (whose name slipped from my memory) damaged two his works and I was also there. To tell you the truth, I did not notice even a suggestion of displeasure on his face. He smiled faintly and said: “Let it be.” So his mental state was really peaceful. He did not quarrel with the person over his damaged works. He did not care about anything. I really admire him for the great breadth of his mind. Since it was broken, it was broken and should be swept away. He would make another one. He always took it leisurely and was not oppressive. This mentality of his was particularly peaceful.

Reporter: Please tell me his physical condition when you met him. 

Sun Wei: Actually when I first met him, his legs were causing him pain. At that time, he could still walk, with the help of a small walking stick. Then he gradually turned to using crutches. He put the crutches on his blue tricycle. He rode it at the lowest speed to go to work and got to work on time every day.  

His unusual self-consciousness became deeply rooted in his inner life. He put freedom into the bottom of his heart. He did not use his own standards to demand or restrain others. For example, he never deliberately used his own works to influence others. He only lived in his own world.

Reporter: What happened later, or when did Chinese artists begin to pay attention to the traditional national artistic elements in China?

Sun Wei: Well, as for this issue, I think I have seen more of his works, and naturally I am also more into his works, so I have studied more about his works. While appreciating his works, I was deeply affected, so I often think about the logic behind his works. Gradually, I accumulated more understanding of him. I think some old-timers may find out more about the source of his work from the perspective of his life.

This issue is too broad. Let’s talk about it in a simpler way today. We have copied a lot of things, especially Western ones, which have been the trend in the past 150 years. We are eager to catch up with Westerners as fast as we can. So we have brought in a lot of things from them before directly making use of these things. It is exactly the most indigenous, the most essential and the most spontaneous things that have been neglected, or they have not been valued. On the contrary, through his works, Mr. Liu valued and magnified these things. That is to say, he magnified most primitive and simplest things, which I think has returned to the most fundamental core. I think it is necessary to return to this core. Only in this way can new things be developed. And only in this way can essential breakthroughs be made in the process of assimilating the things that have been introduced. If not, new fruits will be yielded onto the grafted things while the connate and pure-bred things which are traditional and national and have taken root in our inner world have no opportunity to grow. In this case, I think problems will arise. Therefore, we should try our best to establish ourselves in things with the tradition of our nation or to make these things take root in our inner world and real life. Only by relying on the most unadorned and the purest understanding, observation and expression can you have the chance to make use of the technology of others to motivate grafted things to put forth more beautiful blossoms and yield better fruits. I think so. But I don’t know whether he was clearly aware of this. This is the most crucial foundation which cannot be shaken. We must rely on the things in our inner world, which come from real life. Then we can create our works. Without these, our works will not last long and will not have their life force even if they appear in different guises, which are like a flash in the pan, beautiful but ephemeral.

I do hope that our art, which can be understood by people, will be based on artists’ inner world and on their feelings of life. Only in this way will art and life be real; otherwise, art will bear little relationship to them or there will not be any connection. It does not matter whether an artist has created his works or not. In fact, art is very important to man, which is actually the feeling of the inner world. As a matter of fact, your effort will be fruitful if you put your genuine feelings into it.  

Reporter: How do you think of Mr. Liu?

Sun Wei: I don't think everyone has the same opinion of him, because art doesn't need that. Everyone thinks highly of Mr. Liu's works. I think the most important thing is that Mr. Liu's works have their own value and significance. This is what we have been talking about, which is the purest and simplest significance. In addition to this, there are many other patterns, but the result is the same. Yet in my opinion, no matter what the style of your work is, it should come from your genuine feelings. This is universally recognized by each and every artist. It is sufficient for Mr. Liu to satisfy this requirement. He conveyed his genuine feelings in such a simple, peaceful and ideal way. And it is sufficient for us to feel and enjoy that state when we appreciate his works. There is no need for everyone to make a good assessment of him in unison. I think there is no need to do so because it is impossible to do so in this era. At least I think it has been impossible. That’s it.  

Reporter: His creation methods?

Sun Wei: As to his creation methods, initially, he learned very authentic Western style or techniques of modeling in sculpture. In doing so, he did not gain his inner freedom. Actually, on his early trips to the countryside, to Henan and to other provinces, he worked in the local museums, and came into contact with many traditional things. From those things, he really succeeded in finding the technique upon which he relied and the way of expression he desired. He was emancipated. He abandoned the concepts such as proportion, the center of gravity, form and structure in Western art. He didn’t deliberately pursue those things. He put spirit first. He experienced such a process of developing from similarity in appearance to that in spirit. He always kept on practicing such a process of reaching spiritual similarity. Therefore, he completed the task of returning to Chinese elements. I think that he learned an ability characterized by putting aside western technologies grasped by him and proceeding from his inner world and spiritual needs. He could use any method. He could make a big head. He could mold a small lump and turn it into a figure wearing a pair of pants. It could also be kneaded into a ball resembling a pig. He created his works with freedom, so I think he absorbed the traditional Chinese elements, especially the technology characterized by mainly pursuing spiritual similarity in Chinese culture itself.

Reporter: From which dynasty?

Sun Wei: The Han Dynasty (206BC-AD220). He mainly learned a lot from the Han Dynasty.

Reporter: Just now, you have spoken of giving classes, saying that you had an impression of a person you had heard about before or that you saw the old man come to the Academy. Did he have some trouble walking? 

Sun Wei: Why? I made the acquaintance of Mr. Liu in 1995. What happened in 1995? That year, he just moved out of the Central Academy of Fine Arts(CAFA) and then moved from Wangfujing to Bachang. Mr. Liu no longer worked there at that time. He had great difficulty in walking. Other teachers there told me something about his condition. He was shuttled back and forth from the Academy to his home every day. Later, it was the same when he came to teach us. His family drove him to the Academy. Therefore, it's really not easy for him to overcome the impaired mobility to come to give lessons.

Reporter: Did you meet him again?

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: Did you meet him later?

Reporter: After he moved to the factory (Bachang), we had more opportunities to meet each other, because our studio was established and the conditions became better. At that time, Mr. Liu had no health conditions at all. We gave him clay when he wanted to do things with it. We delivered the clay to his home where his works were created. Then, when he finished his works, the works were brought over to me and I fired them for him before sending them back to him. It was always like this. Sometimes he sent someone to collect his works.

Reporter: Is it the ceramic studio of CAFA?

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: Where is it?

Sun Wei: It’s in CAFA.

Reporter: Did he have his works fired every day?

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: Could I interview him later?

Sun Wei: Yes. It is the same with Mr. Liu now. Whenever I had time, I would take his works back, fire them and bring them back to him. A large number of his works were fired here, and we provided him with conveniences as much as we could.

Reporter: (Question Missing.)

Sun Wei: No, it’s not in the Academy. To put it bluntly, Mr. Liu was an old-timer of our Sculpture Department. We were all very moved by his creative spirit and attitude. He still insisted on creating his works even though he was crippled and had difficulty in walking. We were very moved, so we hoped to help him to the best of our ability. As for him, he often gave us some help. Sometimes he was willing to have panel discussions with us students. We provided him with resources such as materials.

Reporter: This means that in those years you used a very special method to provide him with ordinary materials such as clay.

Sun Wei: That's right.

Reporter: How so?

Sun Wei: Liu Wei also gave him some help at that time and built a kiln for him. But the problem was that a lot of workers needed to be hired for the kiln. To put it simply, none of his works were fired. It was convenient for Mr. Liu’s works to be fired here because we assigned special persons to do this thing ranging from the color of glaze put on clay to firing, which saved Mr. Liu a lot of trouble. Therefore, it was not easy for him to complete his works in such a special way.  

Reporter: Have you ever been to his home?

Sun Wei: Yes, I have. I visit him every year. Whenever I paid a visit to him, I would ask him whether I could be of any help to him. In particular, I would ask him whether there were works to be fired. Now we have a very good relationship with each other.

Reporter: Did you bring his works for him?

Sun Wei: Yes, I brought his works over here from his home and fired them.

Reporter: Is there a small table in his house?

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: Is it because his works are not big in size?

Sun Wei: Yes. They can be fired anywhere.

Reporter: Sometimes you might talk about his works?

Sun Wei: In my view, as an artist, he made his works deeply rooted in the soil of our nation. His works are entirely the revelation of the true feelings of him as an artist. He is not ready to cater to any politics or any specific art. He was unwilling to create works in pursuit of a market economy. Nor would he do so to pursue some conceptual forms. He created his works entirely from the perspective of an artist and made efforts to express his inner feelings through his art. I don't think there are so many such artists right now. He is a true artist. His works are created in a very relaxing and plain way. There is not one iota of affection in his works. Unlike the academic artists who are engaged in artistic creation in a rigid and stereotyped manner, he has thrown a lot of emotional elements into his works. 

Reporter: Will he give the impression of being enigmatic? 

Sun Wei: It’s not easy to do that. His works are inseparable from life. To put it in plain language, most of his works, I believe, were created after he moved to Beijing. But he also created them completely on the strength of his memory. Yet these images are the reflection of his life experience, which are unforgettable. He might as well use them directly because these images are stored in his mind. Without experiencing this life and hardship, he is unlikely to create such things. Here I do not mean such things are trivial and not worth mentioning. Even a boat floating on the Yellow River, or a cave dwelling where there are dogs, cats, a kitchen stove as well as male and female protagonists and their children or other scenes are created in an extremely vivid way. According to my observation, he was influenced by many artistic works in the Han Dynasty when many granaries in the form of pottery houses and tomb figures appeared. He successfully carried forward this quintessence. 

Reporter: But if you imagine the shape and structure of a head, you will find that this thing just resembles a head. If you take it up and rotate it, you will find it is worthy of being watched repeatedly. Isn’t it? Although it is not delicately made, it is something that attains spiritual similarity.  

Sun Wei: In fact, the style of sculpture is similar to the style of freehand brushwork in traditional Chinese painting. However, such a thing like freehand brushwork does not require mature consideration of all aspects. It still reflects the basic skills. Although the expressions and clothing patterns of all the figures in his works clearly display his creation intention, for example, a simple eye movement and a mouth that is agape, they are very lifelike. Yet if you look at this work carefully, you will find that it includes all the major structural relationships, which I think is a task that cannot be fulfilled by an ordinary artist. But Mr. Liu can pull it off. Although it is small in size, you can see the things inside, which are marvelously made. In addition, such structural relationships are all included in it. Yet it does not completely rely on the realistic technique or proportion of its parts. Instead, what it conveys is a kind of spiritual similarity and an intention, which are very interesting. But I guess that his works, if enlarged, may not give such a sense. The ingenuity of his works lies in their minuteness. I told him that I knew that he was good at kneading dough figurines and I understood many things about folk art. He kneaded the dough into a mouse, a small animal or a little figure. In particular, he succeeded in kneading the dough into the vivid image of Sun Wukong (Monkey King). Perhaps he took in a lot of nutrients from folk art.  

Reporter: What kind of attitude? How to get it? I mean that we can accept this thing. Is this a practice that is rarely seen? 
Sun Wei: Maybe some people are contemptuous of it, but I want to say that if you really understand this practice and have done research on Mr. Liu and his works, you will speak of his art in awe. People (especially me) who have received formal academic training are awestruck by his works. Since I have been acquainted with Mr. Liu for so many years, I feel this very keenly. I think he is a real artist worthy of admiration. Although his works are small in size, they give expression to his profound thought. 

Reporter: As I just said, if you want to offer respect to him, you have to know this man. You must understand him before holding him in high regard. 

Sun Wei: I agree with you.

Reporter: So this issue may be involved. Could you tell me why you say that you felt respect for him after you knew about him?  
Sun Wei: In fact, after Mr.Liu graduated from CAFA, he had an opportunity to work in the Academy as a teacher. But even today, I still can’t clearly understand why he gave up his opportunity to teach at CAFA in Beijing and spent eighteen years in Henan and Hebei. But later I found out that he left CAFA and went to the Yellow River basin, the so-called birthplace of the Central Plains culture and did in-depth research on folk culture and national art. During the Great Cultural Revolution (1966-1976), he went through many setbacks and tribulations. And it is due to these setbacks and tribulations that he made great achievements in art. His works are grounded in national folk art. He really went deep among the masses. In spite of his poor physical condition, he adhered to his artistic creation. I think he is an artist in the true sense of the word whether in the way he conducted himself or in his art. He is a man who is engrossed in his art and his works all day long without paying attention to anything else. As I have said just now, he is not ready to create his works by catering to other things. Nor is he ready to produce his works for the sake of the market.  

Reporter: Is this what you feel? 

Sun Wei: Yes. But it doesn't mean that there is no market for him. The fact that he is not ready to create his works to cater to the market indicates that he respects his own feelings. He creates his works for the purpose of expressing what he wants to express in his inner world. I think this is just what is really needed by an artist. Many of our modern artists are eager for quick success and instant benefits. They exclusively create the works that sell well and blindly follow Westerners. Some of them even deliberately calumniate us, including the image of the late leader of our country. Maybe such works sell well. Still some of them give publicity to the themes of pornography and violence. In my opinion, such things do not really come from their inner world. Perhaps they are motivated by some benefits. However, the art of Mr.Liu’s is really the manifestation of his inner world. His works are created on the basis of his long-term and in-depth research in national culture.  

Reporter: What things does he like?

Sun Wei: Well, he never pays attention to these things. He never claims that his works belong to a certain artistic school. He neither pays attention to nor goes after these things. To put it bluntly, these things are meaningless in his eyes.  
Reporter: Does he do such things?

Sun Wei: Yes, yes. As a rule, excellent artistic works come from such artists.    

Reporter: In most cases, it is these people who develop real art. 

Sun Wei: Often real artistic works come from such artists like Mr. Liu. For them, there is no need to think about anything.   

Reporter: You mean real art?

Sun Wei: The real art should be created in this way. That is to say, it does not cater to the so-called political situation. It does not focus on its sales, market benefit, or economic benefit. Nor will unconventional approaches be adopted to pursue certain styles and genres. It is a true heartfelt feeling and the emotional expression of the artist. It is an expression of the true insight and emotion from the inner world of artists. 

Reporter: As you have said just now, it is very common and has become a trend in the circle of Chinese sculpture or fine art at present.

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: What do ordinary people think of it? So in my view, in this environment, are there a lot of people thinking what Mr. Liu does is a little…?

Sun Wei: Outdated and conservative?

Reporter: Conservative. Maybe many people will hold this view.

Sun Wei: This kind of understanding is definitely unavoidable, especially in modern times. The way Mr. Liu creates his works looks not in line with the trend. Of course, in my opinion, as contemporary art, it should be connected with contemporary society, which, however, is diverse, so culture and art should also be diverse. The works of Mr. Liu belong to one type. The works of many young people are also counted as a large category of modern culture and art. We cannot use “outdated” or “conservative” to describe the works of Mr. Liu. It can be said that his works are of a certain vitality in this era.

Reporter: Because of what?

Sun Wei: Since the door of our entire country is now open, we are heavily influenced by Western culture, especially in the field of art. Against the backdrop of the ceaseless influx of Western styles and schools, how can a Chinese artist maintain our national culture and an advantage in the collision between the Chinese and Western cultures? So in my opinion, the works created by artists including Mr. Liu represent their effort to carry forward our folk culture. Yet you are not in a position to say that such avant-garde exploration is contemporary while the research on such traditional national culture is conservative and backward. I think we should not have such understanding.  

Reporter: Have they really realized that?

Sun Wei: In my opinion, many people have conducted more research on Western culture than on our own national culture. That is to say, there is much more research about the West while the studies on national culture have been ignored. Many such cases have emerged.  

Reporter: All of these have been taken from the West, including education. I feel pretty clearly that the major influence on China comes from the West but the wide application of Western culture to landscape paintings and sculpture has not been fully perceived. The views and thoughts of the Westerners are now being widely discussed. If we all think alike, then where does that meaning come from? If you go to a county town with absolutely no modern stuff, the value will be shown. So judging from this perspective, I think that in the process of growth, many things will become lost in astonishment. 
Sun Wei: Yes. You are right. 

Reporter: As artists, their things (missing part...)

Sun Wei: I think you should invite some theorists to participate in this interview. With their help, you may theoretically tap into the position of him as an artist at a deeper level.  

Reporter: You just mentioned theorists, who should I visit and talk with?

Sun Wei: I don't know who have written articles about him.

Reporter: Don't you know them?

Sun Wei: No.  

Reporter: What is he like? What kind of state is he in? I want to have more specific information about him.

Sun Wei: In the past, I heard that Mr. Liu was not talkative. But Mr. Liu gives me the impression of being very talkative. Whether when I went to his house or when he gave lessons, he always talked eloquently. His students were fond of listening to him. When his students went to his home, he would share some of his ideas with them. For example, he would give his students a description of a little technique he thought up that day. And the chat was very agreeable. When I met Mr. Liu, he gave me the impression that he was a very modest person. As he aged, all of us respected him and affectionately called him “old gentleman” or “old man”. But he was very polite with us. Sometimes, when celebrating the Spring Festival or other festivals, he brought us presents. Although the presents were trivial, he, as a senior man, appeared very approachable and got along well with us young people. So we definitely offered help to him whenever he needed it.   

Reporter: Specific things are needed.

Sun Wei: Specific things?

Reporter: I mean that the old man gave you presents for the purpose of celebrating the Spring Festival, really?

Sun Wei: Well, we were all embarrassed. Sometimes he gave us fish. For example, he sent me two fish during the Spring Festival last year. I guess these fish may have been given to him by others. Yet he thought of me and gave me two, which moved me very much. Actually, considering the way he treated art, we should try our best to help him. But judging from his standpoint, he was very thoughtful.

Reporter: Have you been to his previous exhibition?

Sun Wei: Yes, I went to see his exhibition this year, because most students from the Sculpture Department went there. After all, Mr. Liu taught us in the past. But now, it is not very convenient for him to walk. We hope he can return to our department to teach students for some time, which is very good. However, his ability to walk is poor. If his physical condition is permissible, we want to invite him to give a lecture to students in the form of a symposium because the students are very interested in his talk about his understanding of art and his life experience.  

Reporter: What is this for?

Sun Wei: This is intended to tell students that we sometimes let them learn how an artist creates his own works, and how to go deep into the real life in order to discover some things and resources for their artistic creation. In addition, students should learn how to treat traditional culture and how to extract nutrients from folk custom so as to serve their artistic creation.  

Reporter: And then?

Sun Wei: Most of Mr. Liu's works were created through firing. Since Mr. Liu's works were created by using the kneading technique, any ceramic work must be hollow instead of being solid inside. Otherwise, it will crack in the kiln in the process of being fired. Although Mr. Liu's works are small in size, many of them are solid and often crack in this process because they are not hollow inside. In order to deal with this problem, he used an indigenous method, that is, he inserted a small steel drill into a finger or a leg of the clay figure so that the air inside could be released when being fired. As a clay product to be fired, it has to experience the following two phases of the exclusion of the moisture in it from the physical perspective. The first phase is the natural exclusion of the moisture in it. That is, the clay experiences the exclusion of the moisture in it by placing it at the normal temperature. With the evaporation of the moisture in it, it becomes dry. The second phase is the exclusion of constitution water at high temperatures. However, it is in this phase that a problem is prone to arise. If the air within the clay is not completely excluded, the remaining air will inevitably rush out of the clay as an enclosed space when the clay is fired in the kiln. In this case, the clay always cracks.

So Mr. Liu was often worried about the occurrence of this problem. Once the clay product cracks, it becomes useless and his effort is wasted. Faced with this problem, Mr. Liu adopted a unique method. He pulled a steel wire from a bicycle before grinding it into a needle. Then, he used the needle to prick holes in the clay before sealing them. Although the holes were sealed, the interior is ventilated. The air in the clay can be released from the holes pricked by the needle. Although this method is unfashionable, it is practical.   

Reporter: Can it be foolproof?

Sun Wei: There is no guarantee that it is foolproof. Because after all, there are still loopholes, so his works often cracked. That is to say, this method is not very professional. The appearance of the problem was unavoidable. Once the work cracked, it had to be scrapped. Therefore, pottery objects must withstand the test of firing. Otherwise, they cannot be called pottery works. But what you just mentioned is nine hundred degrees. In fact, when the temperature is between three hundred and five hundred degrees, the sculpture is most likely to crack. Once the temperature reaches over 800 degrees Celsius, the sculpture will not crack because it has always passed the dangerous phase. In the range from 300 to 500 degrees Celsius, it will quickly crack if the temperature rises abruptly. 

Reporter: Now it seems that more works cracked at that time. 

Sun Wei: Yes. In the past, many of Mr. Liu's works were fired in earthen kilns. The temperature was not high. Although the temperature was not very high, it still reached more than 900 degrees. But it was not at such a temperature that the works cracked. It was at about 300 degrees that they cracked. In addition, due to the lack of modern controls, his works had to be stacked and fired in the earthen kiln. The more firewood you add, the fiercer the fire in it becomes.   

Reporter: His method?

Sun Wei: Yes, I will tell you everything I know

Reporter: Is it a long time since you were acquainted with Mr. Liu?  

Sun Wei: In fact, it is not a short time since I was acquainted with Mr. Liu. I got acquainted with him in 1984 and more than 20 years have passed.  

Reporter: Do you still remember your impression of him when you first met him?

Sun Wei: At first, he did not leave a deep impression on me. The impression of him was naturally formed in my memory. My impression of him when I met him for the first time was not very impressive. However, little by little, he made a very forceful impression on me. Mr. Liu’s behavior still reflects his individuality. Even now, I can clearly remember some things related to him. So he left a profound impression on me.

Take the ceramic studio of the sculpture department for example. The studio is a small house whose floor area is only more than 20 square meters. It was stacked with various things. Mr. Liu had some trouble with walking. Wearing a grey Chinese tunic suit and an apron as well as light blue pants, he had to struggle through the studio. And this left a very deep impression on me. Another impressive thing related to him was a pair of green army sneakers. In those days, I often saw holes punched in the sneakers for ventilation. It was quite interesting to see the old man at work in the room. He led a very plain life. The first impression he left on me was that he looked not like a professor but like an ordinary worker, especially a crippled worker.,    

Reporter: Could you tell me the specific story after meeting him?

Sun Wei: At that time, there was a narrow lane about three or four meters wide. It was the only way we could access the class. Mr. Liu worked in the doorway of the studio located right in the middle section of the lane. Since it was very dark in his room, he usually sat in the doorway when he worked on making small things. In spite of many students passing by, he never raised his head and looked at any passersby. I thought it might be because there were too many passers-by. More importantly, he worked too seriously, putting his heart and soul into the making of his works. In my impression, he rarely raised his head. Occasionally when he raised his head, I saw a pair of big and bright eyes looking at us, and sometimes a little smile appeared in the corner of his mouth. Mr. Liu worked like this, sitting at the door, with an apron on his body and a ceramics trimming knife in his hand, making sculptures. This is Mr. Liu Shiming in my impression.

Reporter: Were you a teacher or ?

Sun Wei: Of course I was a student. There were not many students at that time. In the 1980s, there were only several dozen students in the department, but all of them passed by that narrow lane every day.

Reporter: When you passed through the lane?

Sun Wei: We looked at him at work, thinking that he was not like any other professor. 

Reporter: Were you looking at him working on his creation?  

Sun Wei: To tell the truth, we did not feel it interesting to see him at work in the beginning because we were mechanically shackled by the basic teaching requirements. According to the teaching requirements and standards, we didn’t think highly of his works. When did we start to think his works were good? To be honest, after we graduated and after a long period of study, we realized that certain drawbacks existed in this teaching and learning method. On the other hand, he was very close to real life and actively took in useful things from it. While creating his works, he simply put aside the real life and got straight to the point, which is very commendable. So Mr. Liu was splendid in this regard. Gradually, we realized the most moving and the most attractive things in his works before gradually developing an affinity for his things. In those days, our teaching activity was conducted according to a long-term and stereotyped mode. In accordance with such a teaching syllabus, students were required to know about the so-called form, the expressive language of form as well as basic technical knowledge. Under this requirement, students must solve many problems, such as center, proportion, dynamic state and the like before magnifying these technical problems. In fact, the figurative sculpture clearly contains a realistic manifestation mode with its core being the basis of the realist language. However, the natural realism, which is a form of realistic narration in classroom teaching, was often discarded.

Reporter: Did these aspects constitute the requirements of the school at that time?

Sun Wei: It should be like this. But it focused on several aspects because long-term education, especially sculpture education, required students to do it this way. So we focused on the technical level to solve the problems of modeling technology, leading to the neglect of figurative sculpture. The figurative sculpture is characterized by a strong shape and realism. However, the plain and beautiful things are the most fundamental things that were discarded. And this problem was solved on a technical level. Yet the most fundamental and kernel things capable of stirring the heart of people in art were deserted.

Of course, our technical solutions were very good and we absolutely had mastery of the technology. However, under this environment, we failed to understand what role was being played by figurative sculpture and what it served or what artists wanted to earnestly express. It is this point that was not valued by us. It was precisely at that time that Mr. Liu and his works were at a distance from this system. What he paid attention to was not the technology itself, and what his works expressed was not technology, modeling technology, proportion, dynamic state, or the so-called form. He did not give priority to these things. Instead, he put the life observed and expressed by him as well as his inner delight and sorrow expressed by him in the first place. He put his feelings in the first place. These were different from the things emphasized in our teaching system at that time. Therefore, his works did not look very beautiful or appear so pleasing to the eye in terms of proportion and dynamic state. He did not mind these.

In comparison, technical elements such as dynamic state, proportion and center of balance were dealt with in a good manner in our works. However, on the contrary, our works were short of the humane flavor, especially the flavor of man’s feelings. We formed a mode, a mode of heroism. Our works were characterized by a fixed mode or a classic modeling. On the other hand, he did not receive training and lacked experience. All his works were based on reality. This is the most remarkable difference. Therefore, after we observed and appreciated many of his works, we were gradually drawn to them. Little by little, we had affection for his works and understood them before liking him. Frankly speaking, one should be brave enough to do this thing not because he does not envisage the possible outcome caused by his behavior or because he does not consider these things. But he is courageous enough to do it. This indicates that he puts his feelings first. He really succeeds in adhering to this principle all his life and always puts this first. This is very important. In today’s materialistic society full of various temptations, it is hard for one to concentrate on feelings. For example, people like me cannot concentrate on feelings and often make mistakes.   
 
Reporter: (Question missing...)

Sun Wei: Yes, Mr. Qian understands him very well. Actually, Mr. Yang knows him well, and we all know him well. To be honest, I think his works are quite difficult to understand. The reason is that we are used to those beautiful things. Actually, instead of being popular with ordinary people, beauty is prepared for some professionals, for example, artists. If a lot of people think that their works are beautiful, their works must be beautiful. In our real life, this viewpoint is prevalent with regard to many professions. However, in the case of Mr. Liu, his works are in fact not beautiful in form. That is to say, the beauty implied in his works is not the beauty understood by the public. The beauty of his works lies in his understanding of life. It bespeaks his observation of life. It is the perception of life and the expression of the details of life. He puts aside the so-called proportion of beauty and the dynamic state of it. He does not create these things on purpose. It is because of this that his works are difficult to understand.

While appreciating his works, everyone must have a very subtle observation. Only from the same angle as him can you read his works. Therefore, as far as Mr. Liu's works are concerned, there is a general presumption that they are rough instead of being exquisite and smooth and that figures are not created in a beautiful way. Ordinary people tend to make a judgement about his works. But if you really understand his works, you will find his subtle and incisive observation of life as well as his exquisite portrayal and expression. He condensed these things into a core spirit that he wanted to express. After he highly refined what he showed at this moment, he integrated all the details into one picture.

Reporter: I know you are a generation younger than Mr. Liu. Have you had much contact with him?

Sun Wei: In fact, I have not worked in CAFA for a long time, but I have much contact with Mr. Liu. I was transferred to CAFA in 1995 to organize the building of a ceramics studio, which was used to teach ceramics in the Sculpture Department. Before CAFA moved out, Mr. Liu was in charge of a ceramic studio in the Department of Sculpture. The equipment at that time was very simple, and there  was just an electric kiln. I remember Mr. Liu and Mr. Hu Jin worked there and taught some courses in ceramics. After I arrived, I communicated more with Mr. Liu, because we would often invite him to come back to give lessons to students. 

Reporter: You invited Mr. Liu to come back to be engaged in teaching?

Sun Wei: Yes, he often came to the sculpture department to teach students. After the new campus of the CAFA was relocated here, we still often invited him to come to give lessons to students. Even the oil painting department invited him to teach because his classes were very interesting and very popular among the students. Since it was very inconvenient for him to walk at that time, there was no way even if we wanted to invite him to give some lessons. Due to the great inconvenience concerning his mobility, he was driven to and from the Academy to give lessons. But every time he came to give a lecture, he achieved great success. In fact, he was very talkative and had a lot of teaching experience. He talked with his students about his life experience, his ideas and his outlook on art. The students were all fond of listening to him.  

Reporter: What is his teaching method?

Sun Wei: His method is a little peculiar. It is not a teaching method that is part of the system of our academy. To put it bluntly, his art, his works, and even he himself are all peculiar. He received education in sculpture in our Academy and laid a solid foundation in this regard. However, the art expressed by him was totally different from the mode of the academy. In my opinion, this difference came from his research in traditional Chinese art, especially the art in the Han Dynasty including tomb figures and ceramic houses in the dynasty because he stayed in Henan and Hebei for a long time. In particular, for a period of time, he stayed in museums and historical museums including Zhengzhou-based Henan Museum. Therefore, he conducted profound research into classical Chinese art. What’s more, he had his own life experience of working at a grassroots level. In addition, he underwent many hardships during the period of the Great Cultural Revolution. However, it is due to such hardships that impelled him to make today’s achievements. His art is totally from his inner life and an emotion from the bottom of the artist’s heart.

Reporter: When he gave a lesson, I found that all the students attended the class without carrying their books. As you just now gave a brief description that the teaching method adopted by him was different from that advocated by the academy, could you tell me why he was still welcome?  

Sun Wei: In fact, his classes were different from ours because he did not educate students according to the strict system of the academy. In practice, he was inclined to use some traditional folk techniques of sculpture. His works were created in a natural way. For example, when he gave a performance together with his students, he behaved very casually as if it was available at his fingertips, like the technique of making up clay figurines, which was very automatic. Moreover, he employed his unique method to deal with subsequent issues such as firing and glazing. In a word, his approach was different from the so-called standard one followed by the academy. I think this is very interesting.  
Reporter: What did he teach in class?

Sun Wei: Most of what he taught in class was not theoretical knowledge but his experience.

Reporter: Under the regular system of the academy, did the students get accustomed to his teaching method if he always told stories and his life experience in class?   

Sun Wei: After Mr. Liu came to teach, students felt a sort of novelty because they were suddenly taught by a teacher who adopted a diametrically different teaching approach. In fact, this is what today’s education is short of. By comparison, in our contemporary education, students are trained completely in accordance with the mode of classical sculpture from the European system followed by that of calligraphy school. This teaching approach is characterized by paying attention to the relationship between the structure and proportion. What we should say is the so-called modeling ability training is relatively scientific, which refers to the so-called relatively scientific and rational training, or the training of modeling modes targeted at students. However, the approach adopted by Mr. Liu is completely sentimental. This is the traditional and democratic Chinese teaching thoughts and methods, which in fact is badly needed in China’s contemporary education, especially in sculpture, even though China has thousands of years of civilization and history. In the 1950s and 1960s, the CAFA made many attempts, one of which was to invite skilled folk artists to teach in the sculpture department. It was training of the memory of traditional Chinese sculpture.  So I think Mr. Liu's teaching method is on the right path, which follows the training mode of traditional Chinese folk art. If such a course is offered, students will have a feeling of freshness. On the one hand, no bias is allowed in our modern education. On the other hand, it would be unreasonable to blindly copy the mode of Western Europe. Of course, traditional folk sculpture mode should also be introduced. Therefore, Mr. Liu's teaching method, in my opinion, gives a sense of freshness to students.

Reporter: When you invited him to teach courses, were you students or…?

Sun Wei: At that time, I worked in the sculpture department. I was actually in charge of the ceramics studio, which was open to the whole academy. Students from other departments such as the Oil Painting Department and printmaking department were also allowed to take classes here. Sometimes we invited Mr. Liu to teach them.

Reporter: Did you also work in the ceramic studio at that time? 

Sun Wei: Yes.

Reporter: Mr. Liu worked in the Academy for more than ten years.

Sun Wei: Yes, I know that after returning to Beijing from Henan, Mr. Liu worked in the National Museum of Chinese History (now the National Museum of China) for some time. Then he was employed by the CAFA again to teach some courses about pottery materials. He worked in the pottery material studio on the original site of CAFA for a long time while giving lessons about pottery sculpture. Yet I am not very clear about that period because I was not there at that time (I was transferred to CAFA in 1995). 

Reporter: Later, he always worked there prior to you.  

Sun Wei: Really? I'm not very clear about this because when I was employed to preside over the work of the ceramic studio. Mr. Liu worked here before me. Perhaps the course about ceramics was not very formal and students could choose it as an optional course.

Reporter: Now I feel as if he worked there alone.

Sun Wei: Although he taught some courses, he spent more time using this space to create his works. To put it bluntly, based on memory of over ten years of life in Henan and Hebei, many of his modern works were completed after he left the two provinces and moved to Beijing.